Aim120 gets first shot over R27RE/TE?

[Steinhoff]

Don´t know if this is a bug but... couldn´t find the issue in the list. This is what happens offline.

* flying a Su-27

* engaging an ai F15 headon on the same altitude

* you have long range R27RE, TE

* you don´t get LA or a lockon until several seconds after he has fired his medium range AIM120

[orthodox]

Afaik, R27 is a middle range missle

Missle in itself is just a "metal, fuel, TNT". Flyable range of missles is just a figures on paper.
Weapon, especially modern A2A and A2G weapon - is a complex of various parts, including carrier, target selection system (s.a. radar, eos)... So, Su-27 (carrier) with it`s radar N-001 can use R-27RE at ranges of 20-25 km, inspite of ~40 km R-27RE flyable range. More: lock range of any radar depends of various factors, s.a. weather, target dimensions, altitude, "stealth cover"...

In addition, radar system of F-15 in "LoMac version" is a bit better, than radar of Su-27 ("LoMac version" too ;)), and Eagle can lock targets and launch it`s AIM-120 missles at greater distances than Su-27.

So, this is LoMac reality: Aim120 gets first shot over R27RE/TE

[Steinhoff]

Hi!

Actually I got this "problem" in my previous LO-install (1.01). Tried to reproduce it, but now I actually get the first shot with the RE´s. Don´t understand why, I will do some more tests :). Only difference was I had my previous install on another partition.

I understand that the maximum range (LO-specs) 170km for the R27RE is at high alt against a lowflying target with a big RCS. And headon off course. But since the AIM120 is said to have a max range of ~50km you just should get the first shot against a F15 on the same alt as you! The F15 is quite a big target too. The whole idea of using a SARH missile against a ARH is that you get the first shot (have greater range). Without this advantage it´s suicide;). You know the F-pole manouver.

I read in an aviation magazine this quote from a swedish airforce officer. He was comparing the AIM120-B (which currently equippes JA37 Viggen and JAS 39 Gripen) with the Alamo-C (R27RE). "A good missile, almost as good as the Alamo-C" he said. Meaning of course that the advantage of the active aim120 was somewhat offset by the greater range of the R27RE.

I understand ECM comes into play too, but as it is now in 1.01 the ai F15 can lock you up at 100km. I can detect him at 80km. I can lock him up and launch between 35-40km (R27RE). Again headon and on the same alt (3000m). Meaning, he has more than 100% greater lock ability:).

In Flanker you always got LA (or NP) with the RE,AE, EM, TE and R77 before the F-15 could shoot. Many of us come from Flanker. It would be good if you developers wrote down the important changes that has been done to BVR, radar and missiles in a readme.txt :). Would help alot.

BTW - compared to other "middle range missiles" like the AIM7 and AIM120, wouldn´t you agree that the R27RE, EM and maybe ET is quite... long range? %)

[orthodox]

One thing: take a look at skill level of F-15 bot-pilot. As higher this parameter is set, as greater distances F-15 bot can launch it`s missles.

[Dmut]

Hello Steinhoff,orthodox
Steinhoff, you have a good understanding of real-world missiles background, but when it comes to game, the "rules of engagement" by missiles becomes slightly different. First of all you should keep in mind, that user jets and AI jets using different models of weapon use. For example, the AI controlled craft don't have to press buttons or move antenna, so AI use simplified flight model, avionics and ordinance release model. So, in order to make correct tests, we should create human-to-human MP fights, or AI-to-AI fights. And, of course, we should create same envirouments for every engaging unit - altitude, speed, radar mode, etc. Then we will clearly understand the advantages of various missile types as applied to LOMAC.

regards

btw: in real life, R27TE has a quite limited distance of use, and it depends on various conditions like weather, target's vector, vector to sun, etc.

sorry for "warp" English :)

[Han]

Relax and have some waiting for a 1.02 ;)

[Steinhoff]

Relax and have some waiting for a 1.02 ;)

No problem, this is going to be good :) !

Orthodox, the skill level was on excellent ;). Actually I dont mind the distance the F-15 can shoot, I just want to be able to have the first shot if my missiles specs are up to longer range than his. Dmut, you´re right we should test it in human vs human MP fights. That´s what´s important. There are many variables in the game of course, but if they are the same for both opponents then the general differences between say the R27RE and AIM120 should always apply. With no advantage in variables to anyone, the R27RE should always get NP first in a headon. But, off course I don´t know about the F-15´s capabilites to jam the Su-27´s radar. I still have to recreate the situation in my first post (in that install I made it happen at least 10 times). Maybe it´s already ok, and that I found some special variables, don´t know. I´ll wait with any more testing until 1.02 is released.

Couldn´t you devs include a textfile with every patch on how these things currently are modelled? We want to know how the weapons work in detail so we can spend the time thinking of tactics :) . Like real fighter pilots, they don´t have to find out their weapons and aircraft capabilites specs by trial and error. Or looking into forums. They get the info they need from testpilots, good manuals and teachers. There´s so many different possible situations it´s very difficult to find out by testing yourself :( . So, maybe a little textfile with some more info than the normal list of bugfixes.... ?

Thanks for the replies! My entrance to this sim is mainly the simulation stuff, but I´ve learned to appreciate some other things as well. There is indeed a beuty to it:D .