Mig-21 and FL36

[<foxtrot>]

When flying at or above 36,000 ft. the plane starts to suffer from severe left to right yaw. It probably needs an increase under [Flight Tuning]Yaw Stability. Can others confirm...I have already tested it on 2 diff. pc's.

[<Foxtrot>]

CORRECTION...its FL40. This aircraft can not fly above 40,000 ft. without experiencing SEVERE YAW problems. I know its not my pc and I am an experienced flight sim pilot...its definately the plane. I would appreciate some info regarding this problem. Has anyone been able to go above 40,000 ft without the rocking effect? AND if so is this issue going to be addressed in the next patch?

[<Foxtrot>]

I know I am annoying...after the last test I realized that it has nothing to do with altitude but airspeed instead. I know in the pilot's handbook it states that the airspeed limits are as follows:
1100 km/h below 37,000 ft.
and
Less than Mach 1.5 between 37,000 to 50,000 ft.

Which translates into the fact that it will never go over mach 1.6 without either overspeeding or the severe yaw/rocking problem. My question is will this plane ever reach the speed it was designed to reach (mach 2.04 or somewhere near it)? Are you guys aware of this? I hope it is addressed...I have posted 2 messages and no response so far. I can understand not responding because I should have paid more attention to the included flight handbook. BUT now that is out of the way and I expect to hear a response regarding this issue. I will wait some more then begin my email storming.

[<boeing247>]

Foxtrot,
There must be something wrong with your setup. I just flew it from Teterboro, NJ to Daytona Beach, Fla at FL510 at approximately M 1.4 with no problems.
Jon

[<Foxtrot>]

quote:

Originally posted by &lt;boeing247&gt;:
Foxtrot,
There must be something wrong with your setup. I just flew it from Teterboro, NJ to Daytona Beach, Fla at FL510 at approximately M 1.4 with no problems.
Jon

That is exactly what I am saying...you can't go much faster (m 1.5/1.6). Try doing M 1.8 at that altitude and you will see what I mean.

[<Foxtrot>]

I will keep bumping this message until I receive a response.

[<JR>]

quote:

Originally posted by &lt;Foxtrot&gt;:
I will keep bumping this message until I receive a response.

Hey Foxtrot,

Ease up a bit. Sounds like others don't have this problem and neither do I. I've flown this bird at 45,000 ft at mach 2.0 without this problem. Maybe by approaching support with a bit of professionalism you might get some help. Remember not all software is gauranteed to work the same on all systems the same way all the time.

Why don't you post some system specs. so things can be narrowed down. Are you using FSUIPC, FSMeteo, Real Weather etc.? How are your realism settings? I've had my best luck at mid settings.

JR

[<Foxtrot>]

Originally posted by &lt;JR&gt;:
"Maybe by approaching support with a bit of professionalism you might get some help."

If you scroll up a bit you will see that is the approach I started with not to mention the email I sent them also. Besides, my professionalism does not ensure support...my $25 does.

Some Info:
System Specs-
PenIII 800mhz
512mb of RDRAM
All SCSI System
GeForce 2 Ultra 64mb
Win ME Operating System
All drivers current

MSFS 2K2 Professional
No addons or Modifications (besides this one)
Full Realism (anything less and it wouldnt be a flightsim)
Aircraft used for tests-Long range model(Norma Jean)

[<Foxtrot>]

JR, after reading your post I turned down the realism settings to mid point and then the rocking issue went away. I am almost sure it has to do with the General &lt;slider&gt; in the realism options. Thanks for the input. Although it is still a problem because I use the program with full realsim settings and anything less would not be a real flightsim. I never had this problem with any of the MS aircraft nor any addons that I have tried. Well, atleast the people @ captain sim now know the cause of the problem and can help me resolve the issue.

[Support]

quote:

I know in the pilot's handbook it states that the airspeed limits are as follows:
1100 km/h below 37,000 ft.
and
Less than Mach 1.5 between 37,000 to 50,000 ft.


Right, that's original MiG-21UM Flight Manual recommendation.


quote:


Which translates into the fact that it will never go over mach 1.6 without either overspeeding or the severe yaw/rocking problem.


That's not a LIMITATION but RECOMMENDATION.

quote:


My question is will this plane ever reach the speed it was designed to reach (mach 2.04 or somewhere near it)?

Easy. We've just rechecked it goes M=2.05+ at 15,000m and it can go faster but it shouldn't.

[<Foxtrot>]

I DONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON! I WENT TO 15,000 M OR 50,000 FT. TO CONFIRM YOUR TEST AND ONCE I PAST M 1.6 THE PLANE STARTS TO GO CRAZY LIKE I DESCRIBED EARLIER. HELP ME FIX THE PROBLEM! THE RESPONSE YOU POSTED IN NO WAY PROVIDES ANY HELP NOR PROVIDES ANY BASIS FOR TROUBLESHOOTING THE ISSUE. YES, I AM PISSED. I SPENT MONEY ON A PRODUCT AND DESERVE SUPPORT TO FIX IT. I AM NOT SOME MORON THAT DOESNT KNOW SHIT FROM SHINOLA...I KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM AND ITS NOT ME. YES, THE VISUAL MODEL IS THE BEST OF ITS KIND BUT IT HAS NO USE FOR ME IF IT DOESN'T FLY LIKE ITS SUPPOSED TO.

[<MJO>]

What's all the yelling about? This "Yaw" effect is real, even in real aircraft, so that I heard.

It is overstressing the aircraft, meaning it starts to wander, or "shake". I have an uncle who was a Colonel with the U.S. AirForce, and he flew one of thos American supersonic bombers (can't recall the name, but looks like a MiG a little, but much, much bigger) and he too says there are limits as to speeds, before it starts to "shake" uncontrollably when going beyond its limits, or in altitude wise (air gets thinner allowing faster speeds).

So, to reckon, I believe this is a feature indicating overstressing or overspeed with the jet, try to ease your fuel back and fly normal at high altitudes...it does not shake to me, but does when using full afterburner and keeping it there until speeds get incredibly high....starts to "shake" a little too.

[<JR>]

quote:

Originally posted by &lt;Foxtrot&gt;:
JR, after reading your post I turned down the realism settings to mid point and then the rocking issue went away. I am almost sure it has to do with the General &lt;slider&gt; in the realism options. Thanks for the input. Although it is still a problem because I use the program with full realsim settings and anything less would not be a real flightsim. I never had this problem with any of the MS aircraft nor any addons that I have tried. Well, atleast the people @ captain sim now know the cause of the problem and can help me resolve the issue.

Foxtrot,

Over at Avsim, the realism slider is a known FS2K2 problem. All of the default and most of the add-on planes will work with full realism settings but there is a problem with a few that require the use of a lower realism setting. I've found the highest setting too sensitive in pitch and yaw so went to the mid setting. This makes the larger aircraft feel heavier, which they should, and helps with yaw anomolies. There are a lot of people using the mid settings for realism. To say that it isn't a real flightsim unless the realism settings are full assumes that Microsoft got the realism settings perfect in the first place :)

JR

[<Foxtrot>]

MJO, I know about the actual yaw that you are describing...why don't you read my posts thoroughly next time. I am experiencing VIOLENT yaw effects within operational speed at the proper altitude.

I have waited long enough for a response from Captain Sim..both in this forum and via email. Even if I turn down the realism the plane is impossible to trim without it constantly climbing up/down. I contacted my credit card company and they are crediting me with a refund. Goodbye.

[Support]

Thank for you help guys and sorry for the delay Foxtrot.

Yes we set all control and stability functions as close to the real aircraft as possibe. If you dislike low yaw stability at high altitudes (which is pretty realostic) open default FS2002 editor and set the yaw stability as you like.

[<MJO>]

Okay, okay....I wanted to test this "yaw defect" myself....well, I did find that the higher the altitude, the banking and wobbling occurs at around 36,000 - 40,000 feet...but it can be rectified by applying trim and use "cruise" speed at or slightly below 350 knots...
I have gained on full thrust from 35,000 feet at a 60 degree angle to 50,000 feet (the max for this jet) and returned to normal cruising speed at or about 350 knots...maybe 400 knots with applied trim and found no wobble....
Speed is the factor at high altitude, air is thinner and makes things go "faster" with less stability if it is not designed for high speeds at high altitudes.
I find it not to be a problem, but to correct the issue if it arises....part of logically thinking as a professional pilot.

[Support]

That's right. And the MiG was tested by real pilots, the high altitude yaw instability is very natural for the MiG-21.

[<MJO>]

Hey, what's with the tone and the language here.
If you ask me, Captain certainly responds almost immediately, so I do not think that his team is a problem. Captain responds as quick as he can, well, as far as I know, their service is exceptional, and they do best to help provide our needs.
One thing you must understand, that no one else is experiencing the troubles you have, we all indeed experience the yaw instability, and rectify the problem accordingly (really it is not a problem, it is a fact of dynamics)
Why don't you do yourself a favor, try uninstalling the program, and reinstall it...that's the first step to a solution. If it still does not rectify the problem, and you're a little nice, I bet you anything Captain will give you another try at a download and reinstall fresh.
With that tone, whew! I'd be a little embarrased.

Just do that one thing, and reinstall it. Maybe it is your configs more that Captains software, I am not experiencing what you describe, other than that it does rock if you go too fast at certain altitudes. Another thing about this MiG, it was not a high altitude interceptor, it was more or less to get the target and get away quick, correct me if I am wrong.

If you want something supersonic, fly a MiG Flanker, MiG Fulcrum, or an American counterpart such as a Hornet, or there are others (but these are modern jets capable of these extreme speeds)

Tone down bud, we can help if you ask a little nicer.

[<firefox>]

My observations on that one:

"Can others confirm...I have already tested it on 2 diff. pc's."
Did anybody confirm 'severe' rocking? Might be the definition of 'severe'.

"Has anyone been able to go above 40,000 ft without the rocking effect? AND if so is this issue going to be addressed in the next patch?"
Meaning: If anybody did fly over 40K feet without rocking, the aircraft's behaviour is subject to a patch?

"My question is will this plane ever reach the speed it was designed to reach (mach 2.04 or somewhere near it)?"
Beyond Mach 2.5 at about 60K feet yesterday! Didn't dare to go higher, though (Simulation reality set to Max.

"ONCE I PAST M 1.6 THE PLANE STARTS TO GO CRAZY LIKE I DESCRIBED EARLIER"
Yes, it becomes difficult to handle at high altitude, but wouldn't it be boaring if not? This is not a fun cruiser, we're talking about.

" I contacted my credit card company and they are crediting me with a refund. Goodbye."
Finally!
And don't forget to erase the files you downloaded!

"25-03-2002 21:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MJO and Support:
I understand and agree with you about the mig's high altitude yaw instability and I expect to see that. But that is not what I am saying and it is very fuckin frustrating when I am saying one thing ..... "
Didn't he say 'Goodbye' earlier?

".. support then shut the fuck up and post .."
Nice guy, eh?

"Tone down bud, we can help if you ask a little nicer."
Don't forget: This guy has gotten his money back!
No more support without paying the full sum again
(and only if the approach is right).

Foxtrot: Erase the files, that you downloaded - take your 25 bucks and relax, buy a nice book for it - maybe the YEAGER biography. Gee, with that tone of yours, I'd also recommend a communications training course. That needs some refinement....

[<Zsh-7>]

quote:

Originally posted by &lt;Foxtrot&gt;:
Any consumer with half a brain would see that my argument is warrented.

Foxy.. guess I have a quarter of a brain cuz you sound like an idiot and I beleive you just proved it :)

Ta.

[Support]

Thank you for your support guys!