Дамы и господа здравомыслящие! Предлагаю закрыть эту тему. Упертого украинского националиста ни в чем нельзя убедить. Представишь белое - он скажет: "Это черное". Представишь черное - он скажет - "это белое". Стены комнат, в которых вы сидите за компами, уже, наверное, и то поняли, что вы хотели ему объяснить.Наверное, у Юли-красуни в избирательном штабе работает...
"Ребята, давайте жить дружно!" (с) Кот Леопольд.
Это и есть "новый украинский политИк"Сообщение от Dragonhawk
Волшебникам можно всё
Просто постановка вопроса в дискуссии, имхо, неправильная. А то мы как бы беспокоимся - а удобно ли вам будет в НАТО, а безопасно ли, сытно ли, комфортно ли? Россия вас не сильно беспокоит?Дамы и господа здравомыслящие! Предлагаю закрыть эту тему. Упертого украинского националиста ни в чем нельзя убедить. Представишь белое - он скажет: "Это черное". Представишь черное - он скажет - "это белое". Стены комнат, в которых вы сидите за компами, уже, наверное, и то поняли, что вы хотели ему объяснить.
ПЛЕВАТЬ, что там будет в Украине и прочих плацдармах дяди Сэма. Пусть хоть укакаются от собственной русофобии. Но. Они граничат с Россией. И все их практические шаги в ослаблении НАШЕЙ безопасности должны восприниматься соответственно.
Да, обидно. Да, грустно. Жили вместе, вместе Великую страну возводили. Но теперь подход должен быть только такой. Адекватный и прагматичный до цинизма.
Крайний раз редактировалось Roman Kochnev; 13.10.2006 в 19:22.
А-спид
300 тыс. беженцев не в коком референдуме не участвовали.Разве не было референдума, на котором народ Абхазии проголосовал за независимость Абхазии?
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Re: США vs Россия ?
Ну, а что тогда ему объяснять?
"Ребята, давайте жить дружно!" (с) Кот Леопольд.
Эхе-хе-хе... Мы когда дураки отдали ЯО, нам тоже на самом верхнем уровне обещали гарантии безопасности и неприкосновенности. А вотом один из гарантов показал, что гарантии на самом деле стоят немного... Обидно.
Скока скока ?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Абхазия
Перепись 1989г. Грузины - 239.872 тыс.
50 тыс вернулись в Гальский район (60 тоесть!). Дофига живёт в России (30 тыс только в Москве!) с российским гражданством.
У вас всё эти 300 тыс. из уст в уста вместе с легедой об игре в футбол головами грузин передаётся.
Крайний раз редактировалось SLI=TOT_53=; 13.10.2006 в 19:47.
"Как ни пиши войну, всё равно боян" (c) voinodel
Так так так... Штампы в ход пошли. Вы просто неприемлите никакую точку зрения кроме Вашей собственной.Дамы и господа здравомыслящие! Предлагаю закрыть эту тему. Упертого украинского националиста ни в чем нельзя убедить. Представишь белое - он скажет: "Это черное". Представишь черное - он скажет - "это белое". Стены комнат, в которых вы сидите за компами, уже, наверное, и то поняли, что вы хотели ему объяснить.
Упал на пол под впечатлением. С таким же обоснованием Вас можно назвать украинофобом подрывающем безопасность Украины. Это ж надо
О! Знакомый подход. Как у медведя в анекдоте "А я... А у меня... А я вам сейчас по башке настучу!" Мда. "Тех кто меньше и слабей, не задумываясь бей!"Ну, а что тогда ему объяснять?
Re: США vs Россия ?
"Когда смотритесь в зеркало - не льстите себе, подойдите поближе..." (с) мой друг-кабардин.
"Ребята, давайте жить дружно!" (с) Кот Леопольд.
Re: США vs Россия ?
Если некто маленький, но жутко зловредный гавкает у меня за плечом, я долго терплю, но потом могу сорваться и нехило накостылять.О! Знакомый подход. Как у медведя в анекдоте "А я... А у меня... А я вам сейчас по башке настучу!" Мда. "Тех кто меньше и слабей, не задумываясь бей!"
"Ребята, давайте жить дружно!" (с) Кот Леопольд.
SLI=TOT_53=
In the chaotic aftermath of defeat, almost the entire non-Abkhazian (mainly ethnic Georgians) population fled the region by sea or over the mountains escaping a large-scale ethnic cleansing initiated by the victors. Many thousands died — it is estimated that between 10,000-30,000 ethnic Georgians and 3,000 ethnic Abkhaz may have perished — and some 250,000-300,000 people were forced into exile.Скока скока ?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Абхазия
Перепись 1989г. Грузины - 239.872 тыс.
50 тыс вернулись в Гальский район. Дофига живёт в России (30 тыс только в Москве!) с российским гражданством.
У вас всё эти 300 тыс. из уст в уста вместе с легедой об игре в футбол головами грузин передаётся.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazeti
речь не только об этнических грузинах.
и твой ресурс не заслужывает доверия.
участники: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian-Abkhaz_conflict
...легедой об игре в футбол головами грузин
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§ 6. Russia and Conflict in Abkhazia
1992:
March 19: Having received the letter from Ardzinba the President of Russia Yeltsin gave the instruction to the executive officials of Krasnodar and Stavropol regions on restoration of economic relations with Abkhazia ("? ?????????????? ????????????? ????????? ? ???????“) suggesting them trade agreements with Abkhazia, which was fulfilled in three months.
Ardzinba and Russian officials are having intensive contacts (General Shaposhnikov and Defense Minister Grachev). Some Russian Deputies (Baburin, Isakov, Aksiushin) express anti-Georgian attitude. Republic of Abkhazia and ministry of Defense of Russia elaborated draft agreement.
August 14: Russian anti-aircraft regimant #643 handed to Abkhaz side 984 submachine guns, 267 pistols, 18 machine-guns, 600 signal flares, 500 granades and about half of millition different type of ammunitions as well as military vehicles, commuflige, food, chemical and engeneering tools.
August 20: The leaders of Northcaucasian republics, Rostov, Stavropol and Krasnodar regions led the meeting in Armavir. They sent the declaration to Yeltsin asking the support for separatists.
August: The Mountain Peoples' Confederation is sendind volunteers to Abkhazia.
October 1-5: Russian military ships: ???????????????, ???-25, ???-38, ??-66 and Golovin together with aviation and zenithal regiment of Russia participated in the Gagra storm (led by the First Deputy of the Minister of Defense of Russia General G. Kondratiev). At the same day Russian tanker delivered to Gudauta 420 tons of diesel and petrol.
October 5: Russian military forces brought down Georgian helicopter MI-8.
October 13: Russian military forces brought down Georgian aircraft SU-25.
November 5: two SU-25 Russian aircraft were bombing Georgian positions at the Gumista River.
November 10: Russian aviation bombed the village Akhaldaba of Ochamchire region. 11 people perished.
November 15: Russian aviation conducted bombardment to Georgian positions at the River Gumista.
November 18: Russian aviation shelled residential area Kelasuri near Sukhumi that caused casualties.
December 2-9: Russian aviation shelled Sukhumi residential areas. Shelling was directed to the City Market. 13 people perished.
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1993:
March 17: Russian deputies adopted appeal to the Supreme Soviet of Russia demanding sanctions against Georgia.
March 31: Georgians detained Russian agent, Lieutenant A.Sitnikov, the officer of Moscow military unite #48427.
April 1: Another agent, radio-operator of Russian military unite #2011 Sergeant A. Lunin was detained.
July 1: Russian Military headquarter had prepared and delivered the airspace maps to the military formations to Abkhazia.
July 24: Russian aviation shelled Sukhumi residential areas.
September 19: The First Deputy of the Minister of Defense of Russia, Head of Headquarter General Major Kolesnikov in his report to the Russian Supreme Soviet predicted Sukhumi seizure within 2-3 days.
September 17-27: a Special group of Russian Army is an avant-guard in Sukhumi storm; Russian navy is controlling seawater area.
Together with Abkhaz boeviks Russian officers and infantry were fighting against Georgians in Ochamchire-Tkvarcheli assault. Russian formation of 150 fighters "Delphin" (commander- colonel Pimenov) and "Edelveis" of 200 fighters, Cossack formation of 60 fighters and about 200 mercenaries participated in the storm. Abkhaz side had 150 machine guns, 120 so called "Mukha" and 300 submachine guns at their disposal.
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1994
May 14: The Agreement on Ceasefire and Separation of Forces had been signed in Moscow. Russian military forces took the function of CIS peacekeepers (hereinafter PK).
- Abkhaz separatist government signed ‘inter-state’ agreement with Russian entities: Tatarstan, Bashkiria, Adyghe, Kabardo-Balkhar.
July 4: Peacekeepers in the village Torsa (Khobi region) killed the native dweller Vakhtang Chkhapelia.
July 23: PK, dislocated in Anaklia (Zugdidi region) opened the fire from two tanks. Fortunately the blind shooting did not cause the casualties. Later the drunk soldiers took away the boat of Georgian fishermen and abused them.
July 27: The commander of PK unite in Anaklia, Colonel V. Karelin threatening the director of Tea-exchange I. Chachava, extort 600,000 Russian roubles from the latter.
December 27: PK representatives without certain reason detained Gali residents E. Basaria, Z. Marghania, M. Shamugia, V. Jolokhava, V. Gakhidze and handed them over to Abkhaz militia. After being tortured one of them, Z. Basaria died in Sukhumi KPZ.
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1995
Throughout 1995- 1996 Russia delivered 6,000 tons of cargo of total cost 2.5 million USD.
The First Deputy of the Abkhaz Council of Ministers Sergei Bagapsh leads the headquarter in Moscow, which recruits Russian officers and sends them to Sukhumi to be settled.
In February PK patrol without certain reason executed the resident of the village Barghebi (Gali region) 60 years old Nodar Gulordava.
March 10 – PK soldiers took out the submachine gun from Zugdidi police officer Khupenia and returned after he paid 200,000 Russian roubles.
March 25 – In Jvari residential area (Tsalenjikha region) the officers of Leninakan Battalion robbed displaced person from Sukhumi T. Kopaliani. The Commander of battalion, vice-colonel Tsiganov held him to ransom 8 million Russian Roubles. After the operations conducted by secret service of Abkhazia and personal interference of the Head of the division of the military counterespionage service captain Shamrai, the car was returned to the owner.
April 14 – Head of PK battalion, vice-colonel Volkov came to Zugdidi police demanding to release V. Gegechkori, suspect in committing a crime (his mother worked in PK headquarter). After being refused, Volkov gave the alarm to the battalion and attacked the police office with tanks. PK battalion disarmed police and took 4 submachine guns and 4 pistols.
June 25 – Leninakan battalion servicemen extorted 300,000 Russian roubles from Zugdidi residents Emzar Bulia and T. Pipia, explaining the fact as a payment for their service defending the interests of Georgians.
July 25 – Displaced person, policeman from Gali region Nugzar Kvaratskhelia had been detained at the PK checkpoint in the village Darcheli. They abused Kvaratskhelia and locked him in the household refrigerator. General D. Abashidze, head of Georgian military observers managed to release him.
August 19 –drunk PK servicemen fired Tsalenjikha police office, damaged police car with armored troop carrier and abused policemen.
August 19 – At the PK checkpoint in the village Jvari the soldiers confiscated the personal gun from the officer of the Ministry of Interior G. Mushkudiani.
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1996
January 3 – In the village Jvari, the servicemen of Leninakan battalion, threatening to blow up the commercial stalls, robbed them.
January 6 – PK serviceman had detained Jvari-Tbilisi circular bus at Jvari checkpoint and extorted money from driver and passengers.
January 19 –The Council of Heads of State of the commonwealth of Independent states signed the Decision "On measures for the settlement of conflict in Abkhazia, Georgia" in Moscow and the resolution on the extension of the mandate of the Collective peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone declaring military and economic blockade of the Abkhaz separatist regime.
January 29 – PK servicemen burnt the house of T. Pingani, resident of the village Rukhi, Zugdidi region and mistreated him.
January 31 – Being drunk, Servicemen of Leninakan battalion robbed commercial stalls of the village Jvari, Tsalenjikha region.
February 14-24 – Russia delivered 100 tons of fuel through the border of Psou River.
February 24 – 120 tons of Wheat flour had been delivered from Russia to Abkhazia.
March – Military equipment was delivered to Anapa from the seaside.
May 5 – In Maykop the association "North Caucasus" held the session. The delegation of Abkhaz separatist, led by Ardzinba, was invited at the session.
May – The Prime Minister of the self-declared Republic of Abkhazia G. Gagulia had visited Moscow and met the Vice Prime Minister A. Bolshakov. They reached the agreement that Russian would not impede foreign ships to enter Sukhumi port.
Akhali Atoni (Noviy Afon) monastery had been handed under the Russian Patriarch. Separatists presented many resort buildings to Russians.
May 18-20 – Two trading ships from Turkey, "Izmail Cheli Oghli" and "Khora" entered Sukhumi port where Russians carried the controlling regime.
In June 13 and 22 the soldiers of the checkpoint #101 robbed maternity house in Gali (took out the construction material).
July 17 – Drunk PK serviceman had ordered displaced Givi Belkania to unload the truck full with wood and mistreated disobedient citizen.
September 13 – 17 Abkhaz boeviks, riding PK armored vehicle, assaulted the villages Khumushkuri, Mziuri and Sida. Assailants killed 35 years old Gocha Nakopia.
September 13 – First Channel of Russian TV provides technical and financial assistance to the TV Center of Abkhaz separatist regime.
In Moscow, Petersburg, Kabardo-Balkar, Tatarstan, Adyghe and Sochi Abkhaz separatist regime has established the representational missions. The Mission in Moscow has an office at the reception of Russian Duma and the Council of Federation in the Streets of Vilghelm Pik and Vozhdvizhenka. In this regard on October 10 the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia sent the Note of Protest to the Embassy of Russian Federation in Tbilisi.
November 2 –Having lost his submachine gun, Drunk peacekeeper put accused the watchman Absandze and abused him. At the same day together with Abkhaz boeviks peacekeepers abused many Georgian families and took out the nuts (submachine gun was found next day hung on the tree).
November 9 – At the crossways of Enguri River peacekeepers robbed the peaceful population taking golden things and money.
November 10 – The Chairman of the Russian government V. Chernomirdin signed the resolution #1336 that opened the traffic for citrus and other agriculture products from Abkhazia to Russia.
December 10 – Abkhaz boeviks, together with peacekeepers slaughtered the family of Arakhamia in the village Rephi, Gali region; burnt the house and abducted the residents of the neighboring villages.
Russian Duma twice held the debates about Abkhazia. Both, the tune and form of debates took the character of interference in domestic affairs of Georgia.
Thanks to the Ministry of Communication of Russia the communication system in Abkhazia works without any hindrance.
About 60 tons of wheat, sugar, grain-crops and other goods are delivered to Sukhumi from Russia, Moldova and Turkey trough the boarder of Psou River and Sukhumi seaport.
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1997
January 2 – PK representative Sumbatov and Bazali visited the house of Zurabiani, the resident of the village Rukhi, Zugdidi region. The drunk guest tried to rape the hostess and her daughter. The resistance of the host turned into conflict. Zugdidi police took them to the head of Rukhi checkpoint. A few hours later the head of checkpoint, Lapin, accompanied with servicemen stormed Zurabiani family, abused him and again tried to rape the women. They destroyed the furniture, opened the gunfire to the house and car.
January 21 – About 30 personnel of Abkhaz militia riding the PK armored vehicle stormed the village Gagida. They opened gunfire to the peaceful population. 47 years old D. Gergedava received the heavy wound, his father was abused.
January 27 – PK military vehicle #643 crossed Enguri River to carry out reconnaissance. Among 5 members of the crew two were Abkhaz nationals and three Russian soldiers (that type of invasion has been repeated many times).
May 9 – The soldiers of Tsalenjikha checkpoint #307 wounded the local inhabitant L. Dzadzamia.
October 25 – From the territory of the village Chuburkhinji two armored troop carriers crossed the Enguri River. 20 fighters were armed to teeth that caused the panic among local population and displaced people. The vehicles did not have license plates or other identification signs.
Some of peacekeepers co-operate with Abkhaz and Georgian criminals. They take abroad non-ferrous and scrap metal, agriculture products, mostly nut. Major Bulatov (vehicle ‘Ural’ #0557 NF and 8411 KG) is very active in this business. Peacekeepers also take away the wood. On January 3-4 they took a great deal of wood from the villages Khaishi and Chuberi to Sukhumi direction (3 vehicles ‘Kamaz’ carried them).
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Ой йой! т.е. в ГА эстонцев не было?Наверно их как чеченцев, в военную авиацию забирали
Я не волшебник, я только учусь
Замечательно, дожили, России уже нельзя иметь собственные армию и флот там где он хочет на своей территории. Вы дурачком не прикидывайтесь, или разницу не понимаете .
Я не волшебник, я только учусь
and some 250,000-300,000 people were forced into exile.
Дубль два!
1) 60 тыс вернулось в Гальский район
2) около 60-100 тыс уехало в Россию (30 только в Москве), получило гражданство там и живёт.
Откуда 300 тыс сейчас то? Они что клонируются ?
1992г. В газете "Свободная Грузия" появляется статья, в которой в подробностях описывается, как на гагрском стадионе абхазская и чеченская команды играли в футбол отрезанными грузинскими головами. После комиссии, состоявшей из российских депутатов, а также комиссии Майкла Ван Праага, не подтвердивших факт такого зверского отношения к побежденным, эта газета в ноябре признала, что "эпизод на стадионе не подтвердился". Но эта "кошмарная история" до сих пор муссируется многими грузинскими националистами. На самом деле, комиссии установили, что большая часть погибших гражданских лиц была задавлена отступающей грузинской техникой.
P.S.
Это Российский форум! Извольте писать по русски.
"Как ни пиши войну, всё равно боян" (c) voinodel
И правильно не верил, потому что раньше поверил обещаниям не расширять нато.Да в том и дело! Помню дискуссии 90-х - Вы - в НАТО?? ЕС?? Ха-ха-ха! Да кто вас пустит, со свиным-то рылом да в калашный ряд? А теперь какая реакция - это не вы тода вступили/вступаете, это они агрессивно расширяются.
Один российский адмирал - Кузнецов? - на конференции в Тарту в 1996(или 1997? могу ошибиться) - так и сказал "Ну не верю я что Эстония в НАТО вступит".
Это было время, когда Россия проталкивала идею многополярного мира и ОБСЕ как ведущей организации в нём. А как ОБСЕ стала высказываться против -егм.. - некоторых действий России - об ОБСЕ тут же забыли
Я не волшебник, я только учусь
ты че мужык ??большая часть погибших гражданских лиц была задавлена отступающей грузинской техникой.
откуда инфа на счет получило гражданствооколо 60-100 тыс уехало в Россию (30 только в Москве), получило гражданство там и живёт.
и что из гальского района 60 тыс. Грузин участвовали в какомнебкдь референдуме ?
Я в курсе какой форум...P.S.
Это Российский форум! Извольте писать по русски.
We'll take you to the future. We've been there before © Locheed-Martin Corp.
А кто мешал? Да и не важно это. Мировое демократическое и либеральное сообщество не посмотрело на то что было и есть в Косово, так что мы живем по их правилам, международным. И признание Абхазии и ЮО не зря поставили в связку с Косово, с волками жить по волчьи выть.
Я не волшебник, я только учусь
Ваши права
